Edited by Carol Rittner, RSM

Recently, authors Carol Rittner and John K. Roth were invited by the Rossing Center for Education and Dialogue to discuss their new book, Stress Test: The Israel-Hamas War and Christian-Jewish Relations. The Seminar, held on Wednesday, 12 March 2025, was sponsored by the Irish Council of Christians and Jews and the Centre for Interreligious Dialogue at Dublin City University as part of the university’s Theology, Philosophy, and Religious Studies Research Seminar series. What follows is a full transcript of the discussion.

Peter Admirand

We all know why we’re having this event: the world of Jewish-Christian dialogue, Jewish-Christian-Muslim dialogue, Jewish-Muslim dialogue is in a difficult state, and that’s putting it in a very careful way, right? Trust has been broken. In some cases, silence has become more of the norm, not dialogue.

Fear of speaking out, fear of speaking in general, has sometimes been a common response because people might feel strongly one way or the other about things. People might be afraid to speak out. They might be afraid to say the wrong thing. This is one reason why the book that we’ll be talking about today, Stress Test: The Israel-Hamas War and Christian-Jewish Relations, is so important. Having John Roth and Carol Rittner here also is important because it gives a sense of trying not to restart, but to kind of take a deep breath and, for many of us, try to begin again because the last year, year and a half have been very challenging in so many different ways. The point today is to look at some of the great essays in the book, Stress Test, hear from the editors of the book, their long history in this field, and in other fields like genocide, human rights, etc.

It’s also a chance for us to hear from one another, but this means it’s also a space where we have to be careful with what we say. Speaking honestly and at the same time speaking with humility because we don’t know where everyone’s coming from. We don’t necessarily know what people’s life stories or histories are, so we have to be aware of that. 

I’ll do a short bio for both Carol and John. Many of you know them already. I cannot do them justice by any means, but at least you’ll get a, a little sense of them and their work. I’ll hand things over to Carol first, then John will speak. Finally, we’ll open it up for Q&A. The Q&A can be through chat, or it can be through talking. Both are fine.

As we go through the hour or so, let’s keep an awareness of the other in mind, try to be patient, patient with empathy, with humility, all of these things as we try to work through some very difficult terrain. 

Carol Ritner is Distinguished Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies Emerita and Marsha Radicoff Grossman Professor of Holocaust Studies Emerita at Stockton University of New Jersey. She has a lot of books, as an author, editor, or co-editor. She has 24 books, numerous essays in various scholarly and educational journals about the Holocaust and other genocides of the 20th and 21st century. Her more recent publications include The Holocaust and the Christian World (2019), Advancing Holocaust Studies (2021), and The Memory of Goodness, Eva Fleischler and Her Contributions to Holocaust Studies (2022). She’s the Honorary President of WHISC – Women in the Holocaust International Study Center in Israel. She is the co-editor with John Roth of the book, Stress Test: the Israel-Hamas War and Christian-Jewish Relations (2025). 

The second editor of Stress Test is Professor John K. Roth, who is the Edward J. Sexton Professor of Philosophy Emeritus at Claremont McKenna College, where he taught for more than 40 years. John was the Founding Director of the Center for the Study of the Holocaust, Genocide and Human Rights at Claremont McKenna College. He is a Protestant Christian with Presbyterian and Methodist ties. He encourages Christian-Jewish relations and has written or edited more than 60 books. You’d find many of them in my office if you happen to be with me. Both John and Carol in so many ways have impacted a lot of my work. Some of the books that John mentions here in the bio, The Failures of Ethics, Sources of Holocaust Insights, and Warnings, the Holocaust to Crane and Endangered American Democracy. Again, just many, many essential books to read when it comes to theology and genocide and mass atrocity.

We have two distinguished leaders to help us through some of this terrain. Let’s begin by handing it over to them. And John, thanks so much for working with me here for tonight. Carol, I’ll hand the floor over to you to begin. 

Carol Rittner

Thanks, Peter, and thanks to all of you for coming. Thanks for inviting John and me to join you, your students, your colleagues, your friends, for a discussion about our new book Stress Test, The Israel-Hamas War and Christian-Jewish Relations. I should mention another contributor to our book is also in on this Zoom, and that’s Father John Pawlicowski.

I am particularly pleased to have this opportunity because I’ve been coming back and forth, several times a year since November 1990, from America to the north of Ireland, not to Belfast, but to another city. The first time I was making arrangements to come to your lovely island of “saints and scholars,” I was so uninformed about Irish history that I had no idea a city could have two names. Nor did I know that how one referred that city I have visited, worked in, and enjoyed, probably a hundred times these past 35 years, often revealed one’s political and religious identity. I am referring, of course, to Derry-Londonderry. If you are Catholic and Nationalist or Republican, you probably refer to that gorgeous city on the River Foyle as Derry. If you are Protestant and Unionist, you probably refer to it as Londonderry. And if you are Jewish, well, I am not sure how you refer to it, as there no longer is a Jewish community in Derry, although there once was a very small Jewish community there until the early 1960s, but not any more: no synagogue, no minyan, and, for all intents and purposes, no Jews, so I do not know how a former Jewish resident of that city with two names might refer to it. It has, however, often made me wonder whether not having a Jewish community in residence, so-to-speak, impacts dialogue about difficult issues affecting Christian-Jewish relations, issues like anti-Judaism in Christian theology or anti-Jewish stereotypes in civil discourse; Israel as a Jewish state vs. Israel as a pluralistic State; one state versus two states, one Jewish, the other Palestinian; even discussion about the Israel-Hamas War. Perhaps that is a good segway into my task this afternoon – evening for you – which is to make a few comments about the book John and I just published, Stress Test: The Israel-Hamas War and Christian-Jewish Relations. 

The first four words of the book’s Prologue state the purpose of Stress Test: “This book promotes dialogue.” ~Carol Rittner

The first four words of the book’s Prologue state the purpose of Stress Test: “This book promotes dialogue.” That is why John and I –  wrote our essays, including the Prologue, Timeline, Epilogue, and the short Essays introducing the three parts of the book, and why we invited other American Christian scholars – Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox Christian – to write their essays: To promote dialogue, specifically, dialogue about the Israel-Hamas War and Christian-Jewish Relations, but not dialogue as an end in itself. Dialogue can help promote peaceful conversation, which can lead to resolving the Israel-Hamas War, to a just, even if imperfect, resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.  

The brutality on both sides – Hamas’s terrorist attack and Israel’s retaliatory actions – sparked fierce debate in the United States and across the world. Yet, many Christians have been hesitant to participate in dialogue with Jews about it for fear of saying the wrong thing, for fear of offending Jewish friends and colleagues with whom they have worked and dialogued for years about issues impacting Christian-Jewish relations.  

Can Christians and Jews still talk? Can we still put tough questions on the table and have honest discussions, or have the consequences of Israel’s devastating military offensive in Gaza, in retaliation for the October 7th attack by Hamas on civilians in Israel poisoned the atmosphere so much that we Christians and Jews have retreated into our echo chambers rather than risk encountering each other in frank dialogue? And by frank dialogue, I mean dialogue that is honest, candid, direct, non-invasive, and more than polite, diplomatic speak.

Dialogue is intended to get people thinking and talking to each other about what concerns them most. And in this instance, it’s the Israel-Hamas War, its aftermath and how it has, and is, affecting Israelis and Palestinians. Has the dialogue between Christians and Jews been poisoned by South Africa’s accusation of genocide against Israel in the International Court of Justice, an accusation supported by Ireland I might just mention. Has Pope Francis’s comment that according to some experts what is happening in Gaza has the characteristics of a genocide stifled, even doomed, dialogue between Christians and Jews?

Is Father David Neuhaus, the Jesuit, right when he says that the Israeli government and its supporters, both Jews and non-Jews, tend to brand anyone raising the accusation of genocide in Gaza as “antisemitic,” a reaction voiced too often at any criticism of Israel or expression of support for Palestinians. Are Christians and Jews at an impasse?

As I wrote in my own essay for Stress Test, I’m not a Middle East expert, nor am I a theologian or a historian. I’m an educator, a scholar who has studied, written and taught about the Holocaust for more than four decades. Over the years, I’ve been involved in dialogue with Jewish friends and colleagues about questions and issues affecting both our religious traditions and our histories. Christians like me have engaged colleagues, Jewish and Christian, in discussions even difficult and delicate ones about the Holocaust. No topic is ever off the table: the role of the Catholic Church during the Holocaust; the puzzling silence of Pope Pius XII; theological supersessionism; anti-Judaism in Christian theology – to name only a few topics we Christian and Jewish scholars have debated and argued, agreed and disagreed about the historical impact of Christianity and the Christian churches on the Jewish people, on the Holocaust, but we seem reluctant to discuss with the same vigor, the impact of the current Israel-Hamas war on Jewish-Christian relations. Why are we so reluctant to address these difficult issues?

One reason, as I have already suggested, is that we Christians don’t want to offend our Jewish friends and colleagues, many of whom have supported our scholarly projects. Massimo Faggioli –a leading Catholic theologian and observer of Vatican affairs who has an essay in our book – believes the Catholic Church’s most urgent challenge concerning its relations with Jews and Judaism is to protect all that has been gained since the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965): the emphasis on Nostra Aetate as a document revolutionizing the Catholic Church’s approach to Jews and Judaism, and subsequent documents recognizing and respecting “God’s everlasting covenant with the Jewish people; Agreements between the Vatican and the State of Israel about Church properties in the Holy Land; mutual diplomatic recognition, to identify a few issues. 

It is difficult for Christians and Jews to dialogue about the Israel-Hamas War, and it has put stress on Christian-Jewish relations. Here are some reasons why, as essays in our book, individually and collectively, suggest. There is, for example, 

• Historical Baggage, such as the history of Christian anti-Judaism in so-called Christian Europe which culminated in the Holocaust. There are 
• Different Theological Perspectives among Christians about Israel: for example, some Christians, especially Evangelicals, see modern Israel as a fulfillment of biblical prophecy, making criticism of Israel difficult. Others, particularly in mainline Protestant and Catholic circles, emphasize human rights” and issues around “just war theory,” both of which may be more sympathetic to Palestinian suffering than to Jewish fears. For many Jews, Israel is not just a nation-state but a core part of Jewish identity and survival, making any discussion about its security deeply personal. Then, there are
• Divergent Political and Moral Frameworks: for example, conflicting narratives, by which I mean Jews and Christians may have different understandings of the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, leading to conflicting narratives about occupation, terrorism, and self-defense. Some Christian perspectives prioritize human rights. Others emphasize security and view criticism of Israel as ignoring Jewish vulnerability. And one should not ignore Jewish, 
• Fears about Antisemitism: Jews fear that criticism of Israel veers into antisemitism. We see how prevalent is the rise and spread of antisemitism, which I personally think is always lurking just under the surface, waiting for an opportunity to rear its ugly head. Many Christians struggle and worry that unquestioning support for Israel ignores Palestinian suffering. The challenge for Christians is how to critique Israeli government policies affecting Palestinians in Gaza and what many perceive to be the devastating actions of the IDF – Israeli Defense Forces – against Palestinian civilians in Gaza. To be silent is to be complicit; to speak is to risk saying the wrong thing. 

Stress Test is not the “end all, be all” of books about the Israel-Hamas War and Christian-Jewish Relations. It is a book that is intended to provoke and promote dialogue, at least, that is what John and I hope the nuanced, informed, and thoughtful essays in our book will do as it provides a way for the reader into some of the urgent challenges facing all of us committed to advancing a just peace for Israelis and Palestinians in Gaza and Israel – and way beyond Gaza and Israel. 

With that, I’ll turn the floor over to John.

John K. Roth

Thank you, Peter, for organizing this webinar. And, Carol, thank you for your comments and for being my longstanding partner in many projects. Carol Rittner introduced me to Ireland more than 30 years ago when she was working in Derry/Londonderry on a series of programs about hate. Carol invited me to participate in one of those programs, and I fell in love with Ireland. I have been there many times since Carol first invited me to be with her in Derry/Londonderry. I don’t have any Irish roots that I know of, but I feel very connected and always grateful and appreciative when I have the privilege of visiting Ireland.

Right now, where I am in Washington State in the United States, it’s noon time, and I have just had my usual cup of Barry’s tea ahead of this meeting. That’s a good start. I also note that the Irish Prime Minister is in Washington, DC today for talks with Donald Trump and JD Vance. I sincerely hope that Donald Trump does not suggest making Ireland the 51st state, and I hope that your prime minister stood strong against those leaders.

The longest section in Stress Test is the book’s Timeline. Here’s what the introduction and conclusion for the Timeline say:

On January 14, 2025, Israel and Hamas agreed to a phased ceasefire that may end the devastating war in Gaza, which started when Hamas attacked Israel on October 7, 2023. This timeline identifies major events in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict from 1945 to 2024. . . . [Its last entry, dated December 31, 2024, says that] the Israel-Hamas war . . . has damaged but not eliminated Hamas, killed more than 45,000 Palestinians and 1,700 Israelis, and displaced 1.9 million Palestinians and 100,000 Israelis.

As I worked on the book’s timeline, my bottom-line reaction was that it is a record of failure. Time and again, efforts have been made to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. None has been more than partly and temporarily successful. It may not be likely, let alone certain, that attempts in 2025 will be any different. American interventions by the Trump regime do nothing to improve that assessment. They include Trump’s proposal that the US should take over Gaza, his ultimatums to Hamas, his intention to send $4 billion more in weapons to Israel, and the arrest and detention of Mahmoud Khalil, a former Columbia University graduate student who had a leading role on campus criticizing Israel’s war in Gaza. In addition, Trump’s alliance with Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu increases the likelihood that Israel will annex some or all of the West Bank, crippling prospects for a two-state solution to the ongoing conflict.

Stress Test begins by saying that this book promotes dialogue. It does so by raising questions and focusing challenges that need to be confronted by American Christians who are committed to advancing good Christian-Jewish relations amid the current Israel-Hamas war and its aftermath. Those relations comprise not only organizations and communities—including churches, synagogues, and temples—but also personal relationships, many of them deeply-bonded friendships. Interactions between Christians and Jews have a long and often troubling history, but since World War II, the connections have grown closer while embracing pluralism that respects diversity and difference. The Israel-Hamas war threatens to derail Christian-Jewish relations. To avoid that unfortunate outcome, Christians and Jews must engage clearly and candidly, critically and compassionately, about the war and its aftermath. Stress Test—this book’s title warns that the task is difficult.

Difficult? Wouldn’t impossible be a better word, at least if the assumption is that Christian-Jewish dialogue could make a positive difference in response to the Israel-Hamas war? None of the contributors to Stress Test  are experts on international relations. Its authors are scholars who have no diplomatic credentials or powers. In addition, they know that the influence of Christianity and Judaism in the United States is declining. They understand that, however good Christian-Jewish relations may be, those relations have limited opportunities to change the world for good. Nevertheless, opportunities exist. Stress Test identifies some of the most important. 

Christian-Jewish dialogue can bring diverse people together, especially in local communities. It can strengthen both traditions by sharing and multiplying their ethical commitments, including protest and resistance against antisemitism. Christian-Jewish coalitions, moreover, can be enhanced if their work includes Muslims, excludes anti-Palestinianism, and insists on a two-state solution for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Christian-Jewish relations will also be strengthened by rethinking how the Holocaust should and should not be pivotal within them. The Holocaust recedes into the past but must not be forgotten. As generational changes take place in an increasingly globalized world, that catastrophe is not top of mind for all, but it deserves a place in everyone’s moral education about the differences between right and wrong, justice and injustice. That role entails diligence in Christian-Jewish relations to avoid instrumentalizing the Holocaust to legitimate war that destroys defenseless civilians. If memory of the Holocaust does not stir concern for the vulnerable, it fails. Making a start in responding to such concerns, Stress Test suggests how much more work needs to be done.

An American philosopher who is also a Protestant Christian, I call my chapter in the book “Making the Best of What We Have.” It says that if my post-10/7 contributions to Christian-Jewish relations are to bridge divisiveness and be significantly constructive, I must stress-test my identity by probing what it means to call myself—as I currently do—a pro-Palestinian Zionist. That stance entails three affirmations: (1) Israel has the right to exist and defend itself as a Jewish democratic state; (2) the Israeli carnage against Palestinians in Gaza must stop, and that region must be rebuilt; (3) a just two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is paramount, and the United States has important responsibilities to help achieve that goal. 

I take Zionism to mean self-determination and statehood for the Jewish people in Israel, their ancestral homeland. Especially in the context of the Israel-Hamas war, my pro-Palestinian Zionism raises persistent questions. They include issues provoked by the Holocaust survivor, Sarah Kofman, a Jewish philosopher who argued that “no community is possible with the SS.” The stress test I face as a pro-Palestinian Zionist, the challenge confronting Christian-Jewish relations amid the current Israel-Hamas war and its aftermath is this: With whom can I and must I have community and with whom can I and must I not? 

My pro-Palestinian Zionism means that no community is possible with Hamas—unless Hamas profoundly changes its anti-Zionist position. My pro-Palestinian Zionism also means that no community is possible with Benjamin Netanyahu and his right-wing government unless they make changes that seem unlikely at best. Nor can I find community with Americans—Christians or Jews—who keep bending the knee to Netanyahu and his crimes-against-humanity policies, or with advocates of Palestinian nationalism that seek control, even metaphorically, “from the river to the sea.”

Instead, I must make community with those—especially fellow Americans—who work to end the war, support replacing Netanyahu and his ilk with more inclusive Israeli leadership, relieve Palestinian suffering, rebuild Gaza, and pursue a just two-state initiative that has a chance, even if only a modest one, for success. My pro-Palestinian Zionism may make it impossible to have community with some Christians and some Jews—personally and organizationally—but I know that friends and allies exist and that the best future for Christian-Jewish relations depends on my standing in solidarity with them and expanding that much-needed community as much as possible. Making the best of what we have requires me—and others, I hope—to move in those directions.

Peter Admirand

Thank you, John, and, and thank you, Carol. Both of you have nicely set the scene for what your book tries to accomplish and also for trying to get a sense for ourselves to speak about what’s been going on with the issues, and even looking for a way forward. 

For about 25 minutes, we will have some Q&A, both among ourselves. As you know, there are many people in the audience, including a few contributors to the book. We also have rabbis from different parts of the community: Rabbi David Sandmel, the President of the International Council of Christians and Jews; others, I’m not going to name everyone, but we have a nice interesting core of local leaders and international leaders. 

For questions, you can certainly put things in the chat if you want to send me a message that way. If you want to raise your hand to speak, that’s okay too. Again, we’re not going to put anybody in the crossfire. We have a lot of different people who could also speak out to answer certain questions, but you could direct most of the questions to John and Carol. There are others who might be free to jump in as well. It goes without saying, I’m a Christian theologian, John is, and Carol is a Christian educator. The floor is open. 

Carol Rittner

I wanted to mention that Father John Pawlikowski is on the call, and so too is Professor Michael Azar, who contributed an essay to our book. I hope every one of our contributors will feel free to get into a conversation.

Peter Admirand

Michael Azar, I love your essay and your title, “Admitting the Sins of Christian Jewish Relations.” All the essays in the book are strong, but I have to say I particularly found your essay strong. 

Archbishop Michael Jackson is the Archbishop of Dublin and Glendalough has his hand raised first. Archbishop, the floor is yours. 

Archbishop Michael Jackson

Peter, thank you very much indeed. I’d like to thank you and both of the speakers and then say something, which probably sounds very sad. Since that fateful day in October, I find myself, as it were, wondering about, embarrassed by what you talked about as silence, because I see the power of caricature and the limitation of language, but I see also myself, and I’m rather ashamed to say this, trading in sorrow when I speak with people. I think there’s a backdrop to my silence. 

I don’t come from Derry/Londonderry. I come from somewhere slightly further south that is, County Fermanagh, and there’s a great phrase there: “Whatever you say, say nothing.” But that phrase is actually corrosive of community, of relationship, and ultimately of identity.

Not because I’m a leader, but because I’m a servant, I really want to avoid that. That’s my dilemma. I don’t have a big picture of myself. I get up in the morning. I want to serve God, and I want to serve my neighbor, but I’m kind of backed into this idea of “whatever I say, say nothing.” It’s not a question that I have, just simply a comment, as well as thanks to you both very much for what you’ve said.

Peter Admirand

John or Carol, any kind of comments about the role of silence? Is there such a thing as “a good silence?” Is there not a good silence? How have you worked through this issue of using words, or not using words as a Christian in the light of suffering on different sides? How do we navigate this issue of empathy, of silence, of silence being misread as sort of indifference? Any words about that? 

John K. Roth

Archbishop Jackson, your comments are so poignant, powerful and sensitive. The sentiment you expressed was the impetus behind the book. In December of 2023, Carol and I had a, a zoom call and we were talking actually about another project that we might do when our attention kind of switched. We said something like, “we must not be silent in the aftermath of October 7th.” Furthermore, we said, “American Christian leaders, in particular, must not be silent,” because among other things, the United States is so deeply implicated in the Hamas-Israel war. And the United States is deeply implicated in the debate about the security of Israel and human rights and all the rest of these things. We felt that it was important to try to gather some other American Christians and to see if they would be willing to tackle some of the hard questions. And what was interesting was that not everyone we invited to participate said “yes.” There were some people who did agree to participate, but they dodged all the hard questions. So, Carol and I, as editors have to be extremely grateful to people like John Pawlikowski and Michael Azar, who, you know, actually accepted the challenge to write a chapter for our book. 

We all – by all, I mean all the contributors – entered into it with trepidation and with a kind of humility that manifested itself in being tentative about the positions that we were taking, which was a way to underscore the importance of dialogue. I think all of the contributors to the book represent a point of view that says, “I have these ideas, but I realize that I might be in need of correcting them after I hear more from my fellow partners in the discussion.” 

Carol and I felt that it was important not to be bystanders, not to dodge the issues and to try to speak in a way that might be constructive.

Peter Admirand

Let me read a comment from the Chat that is from Professor Anne Lodge. She writes, “Peter, my very sincere thanks to the speakers for a really thoughtful presentation by each of them.  I was struck particularly when John was speaking about the amount of knowledge that we need to have of the complexity of the current situation in the Middle East, of the painful reality of Christian Jewish relationships over centuries and with regard to our global interconnectedness.  I teach young BEd students about complex moral issues.  I did a session with them in November about this very issue.  They had such limited knowledge of any of the issues necessary to begin to grapple with those hard questions John mentions.  There is massive ignorance (meaning lack of even basic knowledge) among so many people.  Young teachers will be leaders of children and my students came at this with ignorance. How do Carol and John think we should address such basic ignorance?”

Great question, Anne. You know, what do we do with the fact that there’s these complex issues sometimes with students in our class who might actually have personal connections, but yet there’s a, you know, a general ignorance about their own tradition, let alone geopolitical complexities and other faiths.

Carol Rittner

Let me just suggest one or two things. I hope that we won’t allow our ignorance about the complexity of some of the issues to silence us. I mean, we have to take a chance, we have to try to speak. What do I do? With students, when they have come into my classroom, try to encourage reading that will inform them, challenge them. I try to stress the importance of good questions. We don’t have to have answers for everything, but if we can get students to start asking questions, their own questions, that’s a start. I always say to students that there’s a difference between having an opinion, which a lot of people have after they look at video on  social media – Tik Tok, YouTube, whatever. Or, they read material on various social media sites that have news or that present opinions, and they – students – have opinions, which may or may not be informed opinions. 

As teachers, I think we have to encourage directed reading with our students; we have to encourage students to ask questions, to ask us questions, and we have to be humble enough to sometimes say, “Look, I don’t know the answer to that question. I want to think about that. I want to think about it with you, meaning with students.”

John K. Roth

I might add just a word. I love questions, but you have to know something in order to wrestle with questions that are in the conflict. That’s where Carol and I were when we started working on the book. We encouraged the contributors to the book to write essays that would be accessible, that would include questions at the end of their chapter, and to identify and suggest resources for further study. I think Stress Test can be a kind of tool that can help to encourage people to dialogue, to solve some of their own dilemmas about the Israel-Hamas war. Having a good timeline, for example, about events that have taken place is, can be immensely helpful. The essays in the book are written in such a way that they have personal stories attached to them. They aren’t heavy. These are not PhD level kinds of discussions that they’re written for. They are written for a younger audience – undergraduates, for example. I think they can work to help inform people as well as to raise questions that warrant further discussion.

Peter Admirand

Thanks John. John Pawlikowski, would you like to add to some of the earlier comments? 

John Pawlikowski

I just wanted to add something about what I was trying to do in, in my own essay and even in the wider discussion about the impact of the Israel and Hamas war. 

First of all, I began my essay very deliberately by writing about how in the Patristic tradition, the whole idea of Israel losing its right to national sovereignty became a central tenet of what many of the Fathers of the Church, especially Augustine, said about Christian-Jewish relations. It was a punishment for not accepting Jesus as their Messiah. And so, the Jews were to be perpetual wanderers without a homeland of their own. That’s terribly important to remember. 

I think most Christians have little understanding of that. That’s really at the heart of the antisemitic tradition that has permeated Christianity for so long. I myself have been urging that as part of the 1700-year celebration of the Council of Nicea (325 CE) that we actually have a proclamation by the Christian Churches very clearly repudiating that whole tradition as we have repudiated in recent year, the so-called doctrine of discovery relative to indigenous people. 

I also tried to indicate aspects of the situation that I find from my own experience, many people don’t understand fully. I have run into many Jews who have no idea that Israel’s population is 20% non-Jewish. That’s a major number you can’t ignore. 20%, is not a tiny minority. This is where I’ve been interested in the work of my colleague, Professor Azar.  We do have an obligation as Christians to the small Palestinian Christian community, which kind of suffers a double indemnity or a double jeopardy in the situation. I’ve tried to support that. I tried to bring to the dialogue in the United States and North America and in western society what other voices of Judaism are saying because they don’t get much attention: The New Israel Fund, J Street, Rabbis for Human Rights, and the efforts to really work on building an integrated society in Israel proper that the Abrahamic initiatives works on within the Green Line. Much of that is not known. 

I think it’s unfortunate that a lot of the narrative of the crisis is dominated on the Jewish side only by what the major Jewish organization said. And this frankly frustrates many rabbis that I know who feel that they cannot speak out for the moral conscience in the way that many of them would want to speak. 

Peter Admirand

Thanks, John. Many of you have read decades worth of John’s writings. Anything you could read on Jewish-Christian Dialogue by John Palikowski is worth reading. When he talks about voices that are not heard, we definitely need to hear that. Let me call on Zoe, who is brave enough to do her MA thesis on Stress Test. 

Zoe

Firstly, I want to personally thank both Carol and John for passing on to me a pre-published electronic file of the book. I much enjoyed it. It was very, very educational. I would have a million questions, so just a big one for me personally, coming from Ireland, Dr. Rittner briefly touched on it because we have such a difficult history with religion and stuff like that, and the way Irish people reacted to the Israeli conflict that was happening. We have a very limited Jewish voice; we have a very limited Israeli kind of voice; many Irish people are pro-Palestinian. How would you want people in the pro-Palestine camp to have some kind of reaction to Stress Test? 

Carol Rittner

From what I read in the media, there have been some serious pro-Palestinian, anti-Israel rallies in Derry/Londonderry. A lot of people have an opinion about the Israel-Hamas war, but a lot of people don’t have even basic knowledge about relationships between Israelis and Palestinians. Obviously, we hope that our book will help to inform people. 

About 10 or 12 years ago, I took two groups of Catholics and Protestants from Derry to Israel. We met with Israeli Arabs and Jews, with Palestinians, Christians, Muslims. What I discovered, this is anecdotal, of course, but what I discovered was that in speaking about trying to understand what was happening at the time in Israel and in the occupied areas, the West Bank, Gaza, etc. Catholics and Protestants from Northern Ireland – I think we had 20 in each group we took,10 Protestants, 10 Catholics – inevitably began talking about their own situation in Derry/Londonderry. What did that say to me? It said to me that many people see what’s happening there and interpret what’s happening in terms of what’s happening in their here. People interprete what’s happening in Israel, Palestine and Gaza, through their own lenses, through their own experiences, and because Irish people have suffered over the years, they tend to identify with victims. Palestinians, both Muslims and Christian Palestinians, all Arabs, are victims of Israeli policies and the Israeli state. 

I don’t know if that answers your question, but I would love to hear Michael Azar get in on this. I don’t know, Michael if you’re still on this Zoom, but as Peter said, you have a very strong essay in the book, a very critical essay, so perhaps you might have something to say.

Michael Azar

I was planning to stay quiet in the background. I don’t know what to add at this point. I guess the two things that came up. First, the thing is that none of us are experts. This is a very complicated situation. That is absolutely true ,but I have seen that too often be used as an excuse more than once to do or say nothing. When I’ve taken my students around the West Bank and stood on a hilltop and showed a water-deprived Palestinian village with a water-abundant Jewish settlement, an Israeli settlement, I have noted to them that this is quite simple. You don’t have to be an expert to say that water needs to be distributed more equitably. There are plenty of things like that. While one should approach the topic of the war, the situation, however you want to say it is with utmost humility, that should never be a reason to not say anything. And to, to Karen McCaffrey’s comment, I think a moment ago in the Chat about the harsh reality of how many people have actually died in Gaza. I think the dialogue needs to change after this. 

I don’t think Gaza is a blip in the history of Jewish-Christian relations. I don’t think the norms and standards of the dialogue as they have proceeded since the 1940s can go forward without changing dramatically. In this case, it would have to address the ends to which Jewish nationalism, in this case, has expressed itself as it has often addressed the ends to which Palestinian nationalism has expressed itself. 

Peter Admirand

Thanks, Michael. Again, we’re running out of time. I wanna give an opportunity for maybe one or two more questions. David and Hilary, the floor’s yours.

David and Hillary

Thank you. As somebody Jewish and with family in Israel, I find that the suggestion that Israel is committing genocide is untrue. It’s offensive – genocide. The word came from a Polish lawyer towards the end of the Second World War, and it was describing the crimes of the Nazis. Those crimes were gathering people up, putting them in cattle cars, and bringing them to extermination camps. That is what genocide is. And to suggest that Israel is doing that is outrageous. 

To me, the idea that Israel is deliberately targeting civilians is not the case. There is no evidence of that. The media are making the news not reporting the news. They make the news – one of the chats mentions the word apartheid – that Israel is an apartheid state. Israel is not an apartheid state, unless you accept the changed definition of apartheid so that you can delegitimize Israel. There just seems to be so much that people don’t understand. 

The average Israeli, like me, doesn’t want what’s going on in Gaza. We want to see it stopped. In particular, we want to see the hostages released. This war needn’t have gone on past the 8th of October. If Hamas had been willing to release the hostages, and world leaders had put pressure on Hamas, if they really wanted to stop it. I really don’t know what else to say. I’m just disappointed that your discussion would include terms like genocide, apartheid, and so on. Those are my views in brief.

Peter Admirand

Thank you, David, and thank you, Hilary, as well. Obviously, these are the crux of some of the major sticking points, major areas of impasse, of struggle, of deep hurt, of deep resentment on all sides, and of trying to address these issues. When we think about victims of the Shoah, when we think of Palestinian victims, Israeli victims today, this becomes a heart, a heart of the matter. And  it’s one of the issues we have to somehow navigate going forward. And it’s not an easy one. We need years and years to actually work our way through these issues. Carol and John, do you have  any initial comment to David’s words?

Carol Rittner

I don’t know that it’s a clarification, but I tried in my essay to simply raise the issue without making a determination. I think it’s for other entities to determine whether or not what’s happening in Gaza constitutes genocide. I’m not sure where I come down on that. I certainly think there have been war crimes and crimes against humanity committed by both sides. I think it’s very hard to know, at least from what I’ve read and from what friends in Israel have said to me, what the intent of the government of Israel and the IDF is in bombing and rocketing and whatever else it has done in Gaza. Was it to root out and destroy Hamas, a terrorist organization, or what? It’s pretty hard to deal with what I see in our Chat: somebody said the number of dead Palestinians in Gaza is more than 64,000.

David 

Unverified independently,

Carol Rittner

Which independent source should verify it. David?

David

I don’t know the answer to that, but I do know that the Palestinians have a habit of exaggeration. There were certainly plenty of document incidents early on when, for example, a hospital was supposedly hit by Israeli bombardment. It turned out, first of all, that it wasn’t the hospital, it was the car park, then it transpired that it was a mis-powered Palestinian rocket, and then it transpired that instead of 500 dead, well it was maybe 17, 18. The figures are meaningless.

Carol Rittner

Well, I, I don’t know that they’re meaningless, but I, I think as Peter has pointed out, that these are the sticking points in, in the dialogue and the difficult issues to discuss. But we should not be, in my view, we should not be afraid to at least raise the issues. 

David

That is fair enough. But, but equally, people should accept that perhaps things are not quite within the trade.

Peter Admirand

Without trying to cut across, but just because of time, I’d like to call on Rabbi David Sandmel, as it would be great to hear your voice in this discussion.

Rabbi David Sandmel

Okay, there are several things. It’s hard for Jews and Christians to talk about this stuff. It’s hard for Jews and Jews and for Christians and Christians to talk about it. I think one of the pieces that has been missing, in terms of silence was that many of us – I’ll to speak personally here – reacted to what happened on October 7th, very much as a death in the family, or more than one death in the family. And the idea, “let’s dialogue right now about Israel and Palestine, while I’m still in shock and in mourning,” was a point of, of, of non-connection. 

You’ll notice I said October 7^th. I didn’t say anything about October eighth, and after, right? I think for many in the community, if they experienced it like I did, found it traumatizing. And the ability to dialogue about this and, and to feel like I either have to defend or not defend something that Israel is doing – and I’m not a citizen – that was difficult. Michael will remember that we had a back and forth in which I said, I think we need to have a discussion about this in which we don’t use terms like Zionism, anti-Zionism, antisemitism, apartheid, racism, settler colonialism, all of these buzzwords that we use that are essentially sticks with which we beat people up. You know, let’s not be descriptive, let’s not be precise. Let’s not drop a verbal bomb into the conversation. These are just a few of the unformed thoughts that I have thinking about this at this moment.

Of course, I should have started with thanks to John and Carol and Michael and John and everybody else for, for putting this important volume together.

Peter Admirand

Thanks, David. Dr. Etha Regan, if you want to jump in the conversation, let me just unmute you. 

Etha Regan

Thank you to both Carol and John and everyone who has contributed from the point of view of Christian-Jewish relations. I would just say I think it’s very painful to hold the posture of facing both directions. And that is the challenge to look at, as David said: the trauma of Jewish friends who I’ve known for years since we were students, and the impact of October 7^th. A kind of existential impact. And then to stand in solidarity with the excesses of Netanyahu, which are being, you know, waged upon the Palestinian people. It’s a very difficult place to stand to try and look in both directions. 

For me, one of the great tragedies for Christian-Jewish relations is in great friends. I have Jewish scholars who would’ve been engaged in dialogue, inter-religious dialogue, dialogue with Islam. They have lost faith in dialogue and the possibilities of dialogue. And I think that is, apart from the human tragedy of the deaths, the hostages and the bombings, that is also the great tragedy, that we have to pick the pieces up for people, not people who were anti-Palestinian, not people who were anti-Jewish, just people who were open and committed to dialogue. They have lost faith. And the dialogue with them as friends is very difficult. So how do we restore belief in the possibilities of dialogue, and for Christians, the challenge of facing in both directions authentically? It is difficult.

Peter Admirand

Carol and John, maybe we could end on that, on that question, where do you see the dialogue going? Where’s the hope? How do we look in both directions, or multiple directions, not just to how do we do this? What advice would you give? What suggestions would you give? What are some of the things we need to be on the lookout as educators, as teachers, as friends to those of different faiths who we’re trying to reach out to, but are being pulled in different directions?

John K. Roth

Well, maybe I can start, and then Carol, who had the first word can, can have the last. This book is dedicated in a way that’s a little different from many books. Often books are dedicated to a person or an individual, but Carol and I decided to dedicate this book to the Council of Centers on Jewish-Christian Relations, known by the acronym CCJR, which has a long post-World War II history of working to try to look in multiple directions and to teach and to learn and to carry on respectful discussion with the hope that it can mend fences and advance a more humane set of relationships.

We also picked an epigraph to go with that dedication. A well-known saying from the Jewish tradition, “You’re not obliged to finish the work, neither, are you free to desist from it.” I think that that’s where the contributors to the Stress Test book stand. That is, I think we are all committed to not giving up on the dialogue but to trying to illustrate what it can look like in the middle of these stressful circumstances and to realize that if the dialogue is not attempted and not advanced, that loss imperils things.

It’s hard looking both ways, as Etha was saying. Extremely difficult, but we have to try. The cost of not trying is too much to bear.

Carol Rittner

I certainly can’t improve on what John just said. Our book is our attempt to encourage and not to give up on the dialogue. I appreciate so much the comments and the questions. I want to just thank all of you and say, we have to keep trying, just don’t give up. It’s meetings like this that give me encouragement, as does the example of some of you who continue to engage in the dialogue. Thank you for giving us the opportunity to talk about Stress Test: The Israel-Hamas War and Christian-Jewish Relations, and thank you for the opportunity to listen to all of you and your comments about the challenges facing us in the dialogue between Christians and Jews in these difficult times.

Peter Admirand

Before we give John and Carol the appropriate response, I want to thank everybody. I know maybe some people are coming away maybe with some frustration, maybe some even anger that certainly ideas were mentioned or certain points were said that maybe they disagree with, but we have to hope that this is part of the dialogue, being honest, maybe pushing boundaries at times, not trying to hurt people, but trying to honestly try to find the truth from different sides, from different ways. Looking both ways, looking in multiple ways as Etha and others have said. That’s not easy.

Sometimes, it can mean that feelings can be hurt or the fear of this. If some of that happened tonight, please don’t give up on the dialogue. Keep talking with the people near you, those in the local community. Bring this up to our next Irish council, Christians and Jews meeting so we can work through how to respond to some of these things. Don’t hold onto it, let’s just hear more from each other so we can try to understand as many sides as we can. Because you can’t look at this issue from one side. That’s very, very clear. You can’t look at it just from a Christian side, an American side, a Jewish side, a Muslim side. It’s not going to work. It has to be looked at from multiple angles. 

Again, I want to thank everybody for joining us today. And please if you can, whoever you wanted to show your appreciation to. John and Carol, please put your hands together. Again, the book, Stress Test: The Israel-Hamas War and Christian-Jewish Relations. I definitely recommend it. It’s a good source in your communities, whether you’re Christian or not. It’s written by Christians, but certainly, many groups can benefit from it. Thanks, Carol and John. I hope to see all of you at some point in the future at different events. Have a good day or a good night, depending on where you are. Thanks again.